Who the hell asked you?! (The "floorplan discussion" thread)

Re: Who the hell asked you?! (The "floorplan discussion" thread)

from the Google Maps view it's hard to get a handle on how these spaces relate, but i think there's half a chance it might be this way...


... keep in mind that they do not directly connect. there's an access road that slices between them. the only foot path connection is to go into the Paris, past the shops, across the casino floor, and into the Bally's to their convention center.

at least that's what it seems like from what we've observed.


Another Important Note - i do NOT want this thread to turn into a bunch of bitching about the new space(s) and what they are or are not suited for. Some of us have concerns about splitting the con into two hotels next year. A lot of concerns, frankly. Many are valid.

But the reality is, this is fucking happening. You should have got your pissing and moaning out of your system back at Shutters on Monday, because now is the time to get the hell on board with this plan and make it happen with 100% effort.

The train is leaving the station. I'm going to be on board. Are you?

Re: Who the hell asked you?! (The "floorplan discussion" thread)

if it helps anyone while having fun with this, here's a subdued and blank version of the two floorplans, still to scale...

Re: Who the hell asked you?! (The "floorplan discussion" thread)

well, here's my first swing at this...


...and again, i stress that this is more akin to a map-making mod in Quake. this is for our own enjoyment and conversation. just as id software didn't ask the mod community to help create Quake II, we should not expect DEF CON to ask for our input on how to arrange the new space. this is a mental exercise because i think it could be fun.

if we hit upon some useful ideas for them to use, fine. if not, so be it.


points for discussion with the above diagrams:

* the Contest and Events room is still fucking massive. there's a possibility that use of Pipe And Drape could segment it into some kind of additional spaces, but that's hard to determine. i mean, would Vendors go on one side of it? with enough guards and pipe and drape, could that be a separate space? i'm not sure.

* SkyTalks / 303 got moved to the 26th floor on this diagram because i couldn't figure out anything else to do with the rooms up there. the 303 is the only crew i can think of who would make real, awesome use of that top floor and actually draw people up there. They also run a great party at night so their space would be available to them that way

* L057 Boy's room and/or the Social Engineering room are hard ones. I do not know if they wanted to be separate from the main con or were just relegated to side rooms this past year. At least one of them might find themselves in a larger room at DC23 on this map

* ROOTZ moved back to the other talk track areas

* CTF is on the Paris side by the talk tracks because SOMETHING has to draw people over there. still, i hate its current location. would Vendor and CTF switch on my map?

i'm hitting on one of the key problems: the "talks" area is like a wasteland, from a fun ambiance and con atmosphere sense. there is nothing going on other than the talks themselves. if one whole side (either Paris or Ballys) is given over to the talks, it won't feel like DEF CON at all to me when walking around there.

The Paris side works well for Talk Tracks due to the boxy nature of the rooms and the smaller side rooms that lend themselves to Speaker Ops, Press, etc.

* Merged Villages - This is a hard one, but the lack of enough air wall options means we could potentially see combined villages at DEF CON 23. Many people in the past have said that Tamper and Lockpicking are very very close to one another. In fact, we have lots of cross over staff.

For the future, a lot of the Villages wanted to start using pipe-and-drape to section off a small "teaching" area, separate from the huge hangout tables. This could work really well with long thin village rooms that are combined. Imagine the following...


... in our Lockpick Village there is always a large area for teaching with the big slides and projector. It's CRAMMED when we give a lesson and it's wasted space when we're not.

We have long wished to add more pipe and drape to help just manage the sound from that space, even.

So what if two villages with similar themes shared a long thin Village room and in the middle was a multi-use "teaching" space? At some times, lockpicking lessons could be happening in there. Other times, tamper lessons. Some times a COMBINED lesson topic is being presented. hell... it would even be possible to pull back some of the drapes if we really really wanted. (they are not easy to move, however, so that's less likely)

Still... this could be a really really cool way of blending and building the energy between related villages without it turning into a hot mess.

Thoughts?

Re: Who the hell asked you?! (The "floorplan discussion" thread)

You are right in saying there is a lot that goes into planning and selection for locations to place things, and it goes well beyond what the attendees would like. Logistics of resource controls, access, transport, timing, setup/tear-down re-assignment, foot-traffic patterns to decrease risk of hallway clogs, fire marshal approval for use of space, and what kinds of use each group would want for their space which could restrict the rooms that can be allocated for their purpose. Then there are things like power, networking, where it is possible to "hang" a projection screen, and/or projector, wireless coverage.

There are things each department needs as part of planning, which if not addressed, lead to cruel or harmful results to volunteers and their ability to do their work well. Getting in the way of each department's ability to get their work done can have a cascade-effect.

Plans also have to be made in such a way to "expect the unexpected".

"Speaker $handle_name is going to do a talk on use of directed energy weapons to take down drones, and they want to fly a drone in the speaker track, and demonstrate its take-down." (Fictional example)

Two teams made flying devices with their badges and want to fly them at closing ceremonies. How can we make that happen? (Not a fictional example.)

This is not limited to speaker tracks. When has there been a vehicle in the hotel as part of a Demo at DEF CON? Ninja Network's Van? Mobile hack van? Tesla? The first time it happened, it was not expected before it was suggested. There is a limit to where a car can be placed on a map, and is usually limited to spaces near a loading dock, and then make that room "stuck" until the car is removed, usually after con, denying that room as one that can be re-purposed, making that room unavailable for many kinds of re-purposing.

Then there are spaces that are needed to support the systems that help DEF CON happen-- the behind-the-scene stuff, that need spaces, and they can have restrictive requirements that limit which rooms can be used at all, depending on need.


Describing reasons to support the locations of selection are probably your best bet at influencing decisions.
HTH,
-Cot

Re: Who the hell asked you?! (The "floorplan discussion" thread)

oh i'm not really trying to influence anything... just having fun with a fictional DEF CON assembly play set, so to speak.

however, i do absolutely think there could be some merit in related Villages sharing a "teaching" space between them somehow. if this means segmenting an existing room via pipe-and-drape, or some other means, let's explore that.

i'd like to hear whether the Wireless Village and Sheep Village would share in the way that Tamper and Lockpick might. i'm going to be asking the organizers to speak to one another there.

Re: Who the hell asked you?! (The "floorplan discussion" thread)

I was going to make a map showing the two areas, but I found one already drawn up:



According to employees we asked when we scouted the new location Sunday night, there is an underground tunnel that connects the two events centers, but I seriously doubt they'd want us using it for obvious reasons.

I don't think I'd want to see the villages, contest areas, and talks all in separate areas. The con is already becoming a little Balkanized, and that would sort of cement it. The space does make it difficult, but what I think would be really cool is to find a way to have talks that relate to one of the villages right next door to that village (I know it's all over when we get a Compliance Village).

Re: Who the hell asked you?! (The "floorplan discussion" thread)

It looks like the "Tequila Bar" might become the next Shutters perhaps? From a location standpoint it works, but it seems like it might get too crowded in there...


actually, wait a minute... Sully's bar might be the real ticket...

Re: Who the hell asked you?! (The "floorplan discussion" thread)

I like all the energy you've put into laying this out Deviant!

I'll make a couple big general statements about the space for next year:
- Yes, if possible we'd like to have a speaking side and an events side. It will cut down on staff burn out from having to double their walking distances, it will cut costs by not having to pay to flip rooms for events in the evening and flip back for seating in the day, and will help keep the contests energy in one area instead of spread out.
- Pipe and drape costs in rental and labor, so if it is to be used extensively think about how it can be set up once and not moved until tear down.
- I like the idea of mini hang out areas spread out so people can spontaneously sit and have a conversation.
- We'll know where food zones could possibly be located once we understand from the hotel where they can prep it.
- Russ timed walking from one space to the other, and at a leisurely pace was about 7 minutes, comparable to walking from shutters bar to the speaking area.
- On speaking tracks we used to have four big rooms (P&T Fri, Sat) plus a smaller room at Rio. I'd like to have the same amount of speaking or more.
- On break out space I'd like to have room to add a new village
- I'd like to have some space for "labs" or 2-4 hour work shops or mini trainings.
- On the top floor there are six suites, and space on either side. One side has the bigger rooms, the other has the smaller speaking rooms. If you adjust your graphic to take over the entire top floor it will make more sense.

I appreciate the thinking out loud, it's what we've been doing for the last year but it always helps to see what other people have to say.

DT

Re: Who the hell asked you?! (The "floorplan discussion" thread)

Are the two theaters available for talks? If so, what are their capacities?

Someone should make this into a sim game. :P I might be able to provide a crowd simulation library...

Re: Who the hell asked you?! (The "floorplan discussion" thread)

we appreciate all the energy you put into the con every year. this thread has the potential to get people into the wrong notion that they can dictate or request con logistics, hence i tried to word things in the subject and posts as clearly as possible in the "this is not our call" vein... but we appreciate being part of the back-and-forth.

there is almost no way that you could explain and convey to us all of what goes into the planning logistics. i imagine it's like sorting out place settings at a White House fancy dinner... so many relationships and sticking points. "he can't sit next to her, but they should really be at the same table as the Senator. but make sure he has his back to the Congressman from Ohio and absolutely don't put that delegation near anyone who will eat pork. also the Chief of Staff might have to take that phone call about Syria a few times throughout the night, so put him near the doorway. But not with his back to the doorway, he hates that and we'll never hear the end of it. Also don't forget a seat for the Vice President again like last time." etc etc.

And then when it's all ostensibly done, someone comes along and says something like, "uh... did you forget that Vendors has to be locked up at night? You have it used as a public walkway to the <blah blah> room which is open until 8pm this year," or something similar, right? (I can't imagine that actually happens since Vendors is a main room that is well-established... but there must be loads of other little tweaks that take place often)


has there been any chatter yet as to whether the Bally's or the Paris will be the speaking vs events side? I'm sure that's one of the biggest ways that folk are curious as to what's leaning one way or another.

I seriously think that much of why some of us knocked things together the way that we did already was because of the decorum in the Paris seems so posh and almost clashes with the Contest & Events vibe. Unless we want to pick locks and cut mohawks like foppish dandies. (yes i'm mixing French and English Victorian references. i don't know enough about goofy French culture from the 18th century. Although the steampunk crowd would surely like it if we dolled up the speaking rooms like Nitrogen salons and frolicked about in a delirious haze.)


i think the best idea that's been hit upon yet was the "shared village" space that includes a permanent classroom zone formed with the use of pipe-and-drape.

another big question I had relates to the Bally's Events center. That huge beige square at the top of the map... there do not appear to be any air-wall dotted lines there. is that, indeed, one massive space? were you hoping to divide it up somehow? If not, then would it ALL be Contest/Events/Hangout/Etc? or something else? a super track?

that's utterly massive. it's cool... but without a way to divide it, this has got to be one of the biggest challenges you'll face.



that is easily the biggest thing i miss about the Alexis Park. spontaneous hangout zones. while we have lost the poolside nature of those get-togethers (perhaps forever?) they can still happen in the right context.

unfortunately, what was free at the AP costs money in our modern hotels: chairs and tables. that's a real budget issue for DEF CON, since the comfier the chairs and tables are, the more they lend themselves to "people sitting and working and talking together" as opposed to "someone who wanted to sit for a while to stare at his or her laptop"



i am very hopeful that this will be the case, but what i think most people aren't expecting is to go through the casino zone in the process. the attendees will always adapt and get better at doing things... but can we expect hotel security to be ok if, say, a large cart of equipment or hand truck of strange looking beer cooling gear moves across a gaming floor? if the Event Center turns out to be the CnE area, then maybe much of the con will stay at Bally's? easier to get to and from that zone (and the Bally's Event center's side doors look like a suitable smoking area, maybe? good for Beer Cooling also?)

If the North Tower rooms have been renovated some time since the hotel stopped hosting live jai alai games, maybe a lot of us will stay there? (NOTE - they were actually renovated in 2004, it seems. i want to book a dozen of those rooms right now for TOOOL, heh, when's the room block open?) ;-)


the new spaces appear to have fewer air-wall options... only splitting down the size so far. would you have to perhaps make additional rooms in this sort of fashion?



is it crazy that while our space has increased so very much, it still feels like DEF CON will quickly exhaust this new allotment?


oooh... any chance you can tease us with a notion as to what topic this new Village would have?

what do you think of the "combined" village idea if the rooms can't be segmented down further?



heh... as long as we don't have too much re-hashing of the debate over whether these are paid or not, i think lots of folk would support that. :-P



phew... i know that you'll find the right use for them, but god damn they sure feel far away from the action. I've run conferences and staffed conferences where things are split between floors, and unless there's a huge and loud, energetic draw on an upper floor, the people up there feel really cut off from the fun.

SkyTalks is a big draw (and they party hard at night)... maybe the Social Engineering folk or even ROOTZ could make use of a space or spaces like that? any event that wants to be on-site but separate from the noise and hustle and bustle?

A question I had this year: was LosT moved to the small private room because his contest runs better that way and he wanted it? was there an element of "management" of the contest that he wanted out of the public eye? One of the coolest and weirdest looking and wildest tables in the CnE area year after year was the LosT Challenge area... it's a pity if that is going to always be pushed to a side room now. Unless, of course, that's what's needed for the game.


We value getting to be a part of the discussion, even though 75% of what we suggest is often unfeasible right out of the gate... and 90% of us can't even begin to conceive of what DEF CON will look like next year.

Thanks for the back-and-forth. We'll keep it light-hearted and try to only offer up relevant and workable suggestions.

Re: Who the hell asked you?! (The &quot;floorplan discussion&quot; thread)

This might not belong here, but as rooms are broken up into tracks, the lines for each track will have to be a major consideration.

One thing I noticed this year especially in track one was the limited ability do dump people into the room. When there is primarily one door to enter, and the line is 2 people wide, it is going to take a long time to fill that room. Especially when the first thing people do when they enter is decide to turn left/right slowing down everyone behind them.

Once people started taking longer to sit down, goons started metering people into the room which added to the total time required to seat everyone.

So the question is can we have two lines (probably parallel), since people often wont stack up 4 people wide even if you tell them to. And let each enter at different doors. It might be more efficient to have each line enter the larger tracks on different sides, but then having humans decide which line to wait in becomes a problem.

No real solutions yet, just thoughts that maybe someone can expand on.

Re: Who the hell asked you?! (The &quot;floorplan discussion&quot; thread)

Yes, you got it right, one giant space with no air walls. Because of that Paris seems the natural choice for speaking tracks.

Speaking of which Deviant, do you have the room size figures for theater style seating? I have a feeling once you put them up on each track and compare to what we had at Rio we'll get a better feel for how much bigger things are and how lines should be much less of an issue. Except for Kaminsky. :-p

Re: Who the hell asked you?! (The &quot;floorplan discussion&quot; thread)

Earlier Deviant Ollam said "a lot of the Villages wanted to start using pipe-and-drape"

I know at DC22 the Pipe and drape costs were an issue and something the powers to be were extremely concerned with and justifiably not really happy with using extensively. ( I know DT (the ultimate authority) in an earlier post also mentioned the costs.) I think maybe people can come up with other options that will serve the same purpose of segregating larger areas, but could be used over and over as opposed to paying rental costs that are recurring year after year with pipe and drape.

I have been considering utilizing the aluminum or fiberglass pop up display walls made for tradeshows. They are available fairly cheaply searching them out on the secondary market, they fold down to a very small size that helps in storage and transportation and most importantly they meet all the fire standards and have material data safety sheets available that are necessary for the hotel and fire Marshalls approval.

I think the infrastructure of the villages is one of the most difficult and time consuming tasks for Village Teams to deal with on setup and breakdown, (cabling, power, etc.). Utilizing the walls I mentioned above not only are they great dividers but they can also be pre-wired with network cables and other things needed to serve the needs of village attendees. We can accomplish cost savings for DEF CON and also make the task of setting up and tearing down easier for village staff.

I am sure with all the brain power on this forum others will have additional great thoughts and ideas on how to use items besides costly pipe and drape to serve the same purpose. Sharing this knowledge across villages makes everyone's job easier and also helps to create a valuable comradery between the different villages and is a win, win for all.

Re: Who the hell asked you?! (The &quot;floorplan discussion&quot; thread)

One thing of interest to people running any single village in the past has been the ability to lock up stuff in a space, and return to it later with an understanding nobody else had access.

By combining villages into shared room, will this cause a problem in this space for the organizers involved? The greater the number of people involved with access to a room, the greater the security threat. (Insider threat, theft of access token, more.)

Would sharing a room cause problems for organizers that share a room for their villages?

If there is a problem, are there ideas to overcome these issues?

Another item: noise
There have been complaints about noise on the other side of a wall from games in speaker tracks, and parties. When you have a shared room, even if there are drapes, noise and sound travels. A person using a dremel or similar tool may be too loud for speakers. Asking those people to "leave" is painful, and asking people to "schedule" their noisy work, is also bad, especially when people are competing in a contest.


Thanks for ideas,
-Cot